Rosemary Esmay on Bush Released Records:
Bush needed 50 points per year to complete his obligation. He had 56 per year.
Wrong, Bush needed 50 points per year to make that year qualify towards a military pension. There is a big difference between earning retirement points and showing up at your appointed place of duty WHEN you are supposed to be there. You can skip several drills, physicals and training exercises and still earn enough points for retirement through other means. Further, Bush was being paid in Texas for drills supposedly performed in Alabama. The Texas records can only verify that Bush was paid and for what time period, not whether or not he performed the drills as required in Alabama. The issue at hand, contrary to the revisionists, was not about Bush getting paid or receiving an honorable discharge, but about Bush showing up.
So, in the end what do we have? Bush earned enough points per year to qualify towards his military pension. And? After completing my six year active duty requirement, I earned enough points per year through Marine Corps Institute courses to make several of my inactive reserve years qualify towards my retirement without a drilling obligation. Retirement points do not equal drilling or training, but performing such drilling is one way of receiving these points. This issue still remains, did the man show up for drills and training when required? Or was he simply paid? Show me the unit diary muster logs. A paycheck shows evidence of getting paid. The muster records indicate who was present and when.
After I posted a comment to her entry, Rosemary had this to say: “You know better than retired Lt. Col. Albert Lloyd Jr. who happened to be personnel director with the Texas Air National Guard? I’m impressed.”
First off, unless Lloyd accompanied Bush to Alabama personally he cannot attest to his attendance at drills and required trainings, only to whether or not Bush got paid and for what periods. Again, the issue has not been whether or not Bush got paid for drilling or received an honorable discharge, but rather, did he show up for said drills. Second, Bush was temporarily attached to an Alabama unit for a large part of that time, and not directly under the supervision of the Texas Air National Guard and Lt. Col Albert Lloyd, Jr. Texas paid him. Alabama was supposed to train him. Lloyd can verify that Texas paid, but not that Alabama trained and drilled him. Just a minor, itty-bitty detail for those paying attention. It is clear that some folks don’t know the difference between earning retirement credit points and actually attending drills in person like us ignorant common folk. Forgive me, I actually served on active duty and then drilled in the reserves as well as earned retirement credits during my inactive reserve time following my first honorable discharge. And there are plenty of people who will verify the same for me, unlike a certain somebody in The White House.
Again, Lloyd didn’t certify that Bush attended the drills, only that he was awarded enough retirement points to make those years “good” for retirement and that he was paid and for which dates. Texas paid him and that is what Lloyd verified. Alabama was responsible for drilling him. The issue of whether or not he attended said drills would be documented in the unit diary and muster records for the Alabama unit.
Not to belabor this point, but getting paid is one thing, showing up is another. Did he show or was he just paid for the drills as a consequence of his unique reservist status? Further, in 2000 a reward was offered by Alabama Vietnam vets for anyone who would verify that Bush served with them in Alabama. Since there were no reward takers, this question can only be resolved through the muster logs, which may or may not still exist.
On a separate point, the CINC clearly did shirk his obligation to secure a physical to keep his flight status up to date and was consequently grounded. A pilot who couldn’t fly was a big waste of training time and money in the military I served. Whether he was getting paid or not. Further, if I, as a lowly sergeant, had failed to secure a physical when instructed to by senior officers or staff NCO’s I’d either have my ass chewed out like there was no tomorrow, or I’d find myself subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Bush was simply grounded and this was allowed to stand for two years without further consequence. Further, such a individual is an impediment to advancement for those in lower ranks who share the same MOS.
There is a difference between being awarded retirement credits by a military unit that doesn’t actually have physical custody of a reservist and actually showing up to drill with another unit. Even if those who never wore a uniform wish to declare otherwise. Lloyd did not say Bush drilled. Lloyd said Bush was paid for drilling and for which dates. Based on these pay records Lloyd concluded that Bush earned an honorable discharge. There is a difference between the two. The question still stands: did Bush get a free pass in Alabama that other men and women paid for with their own blood in the mud and muck of Vietnam?
And for the record, for those who may have wondered, I’m a libertarian. Not everyone who disagrees with a conservative on a given issue is a liberal. Only small-minded politically naive fools see the political landscape as only conservative vs. liberal.
I never said you were a liberal. It matters not one way or the other. You said that the records proved nothing. I question that.
I never served, so I only know what others that have served have said. You are among a minority of online military that still think that Bush was AWOL.
I was under the understanding that you can’t get paid unless you show up. You say I’m wrong. Fine. Again, I can only argue with the facts that have been presented. The AWOL thing bothers me becuse so many other people say the Guard has different rules regarding that.
Either way, I’m not prepared to call a man who did serve a deserter or AWOL without proof beyond a reasonable doubt. There is way too much doubt here for me.
Thank you for your service to our country. Thank you for doing your part to help me maintain my freedom. I salute you, sir.
Bush Released Records (Rosemary, the Q.O.A.E.)
Bush authorized the release of his National Guard service records. Guess what it showed? The documents indicate that Bush received credit for nine days of…
Mr Landrith,
A libertarian you may be, but your remarks are curiously leftist-tinged against Bush. I served in the military also (more years than I care to think about). I know many politicians/VIPs that served in the military. Many went the Guard route and many had their duty curtailed or their full requirements winked at – as long as they filled the square. Many. I would not argue that Bush received special treatment not dissimilar to these NUMEROUS individuals. I also know he flew the Deuce, a dangerous aircraft, and could have been called to Vietam service at any time. An example of your bias is the phrase starting with “shirk”. A curious word to use for someone not following through on a physical. Its usually assocaied with duty. Surely you know many, many pilots of obsolete aircraft (or for other reasons) don’t follow through on their physicals and actually the opposite of what you say is true. If Bush had had a physical we would have spent resources to qualify a pilot in an obsolete and dangerous aircraft. There were tons of excess pilots available in the early seventies. I hope you don’t have an agenda. The flavor of your remarks are curious.
2/11/2004 6:00:00
The flavor of my remarks are curious only to those projecting an agenda on to me or to those who equate any criticism of the current Administration with “leftist.” For the record, again, I’m not the property of Democrats or Republicans. I criticize both equally, but certain folks only notice when their “team” is the one getting it this time. Sad.
Righties label me “leftist-tinged” and lefties call me “right-wing.”
The world keeps spinning.
2/11/2004 6:14:00
All seems a long way of saying, “That he got paid doesn’t prove he showed up.”
In any case: It’s fairly apparent now that Bush should have continued to ignore this story. We know it was common for paperwork to be lost. We know it was common to take time off from drill duty as long as you made the hours up later. We know that there was a glut of pilots in the reserves at that time, that they had more than they could use. We know that AWOL is an over-the-top charge for which there is no clear evidence, and that if you only see someone a couple days a month and may well be gone for long periods for completely legitimate reasons, it’s not odd that someone wouldn’t remember you clearly–even today, most of the reservists I know are not buddies with their fellow reservists because they don’t see each other that often, and all the descriptions of what the Guard was like in the early ’70s makes it apparent that it was an even more diffuse branch of the service to be in then than it is now.
Ya know, it all comes down to something fairly obvious: does this man not deserve the benefit of the doubt? Why does he have to prove anything? More importantly, HOW can he prove anything? If the muster rolls are gone–which they very well might be–should the matter not then be simply dropped?
James,
I have no reason to believe that Bush shirked his duty with regard to the physical. This is from the letter Rosemary linked (at http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20040210-082910-8424r.htm):
“Another frequent charge is that, as a member of the Texas ANG, Lt. Bush twice ignored or disobeyed lawful orders, first by refusing to report for a required physical in the year when drug testing first became part of the exam, and second by failing to report for duty at the disciplinary unit in Colorado to which he had been ordered. Well, here are the facts:
First, there is no instance of Lt. Bush disobeying lawful orders in reporting for a physical, as none would be given. Pilots are scheduled for their annual flight physicals in their birth month during that month’s weekend drill assembly ? the only time the clinic is open. In the Reserves, it is not uncommon to miss this deadline by a month or so for a variety of reasons: The clinic is closed that month for special training; the individual is out of town on civilian business; etc.
If so, the pilot is grounded temporarily until he completes the physical. Also, the formal drug testing program was not instituted by the Air Force until the 1980s and is done randomly by lot, not as a special part of a flight physical, when one easily could abstain from drug use because of its date certain. Blood work is done, but to ensure a healthy pilot, not confront a drug user.”
This is a little different from being ordered to get a physical, James.
In the comments in a post on Hobbs Online at (http://billhobbs.com/hobbsonline/003211.html), one of the commenters, JLawson, is a retired AF Reserve Personnel Specialist. He says the copy of the DD-214 already provided is absolutely all he needs to tell you Bush wasn’t AWOL. He really knows his stuff, and he says there is nothing to the story. His expertise trumps your doubts. Sorry.
And check out http://billhobbs.com/hobbsonline/cat_was_bush_awol.html for more. Lots more. Incredible amounts more. There is nothing to the AWOL story.
Yours,
Wince
Actually, Wince and Nod, having worn a uniform unlike you, I know the difference between a suggestion and an order. Bush was ordered, by written letter, to get a physical. When he did not, he was removed from flight status. This means that the tens of thousands of dollars spent to train him were then going to waste as he was moved into a non-flight status. Your friend is incorrect, lying or acting as an apologist. Take your pick.
Further, your comment:
Sorry my apologist friend, but possession of a DD-214 doesn’t prove absence of AWOL status. It only proves that he was discharged. My own training and expertise as an administrative NCO trumps your silly little reference to an obscure comment by a Bush apologist. Do you even know what a DD-214 is? If you did, you’d know that its existence only signals Bush’s discharge, not whether or not he was always a good boy. Sorry pal, but I really know my stuff. I did it on a daily basis for six years in one of the largest battalions in the Marine Corps, not two days a month.
Your average chickenhawk couch warrior will see nothing wrong with making excuses for a Republican’s disobedience of a lawful order – and make no mistake – Bush disobeyed a lawful order when he failed to get his physical. Having served honorably on active duty, I see it as an offense to all of us who did our jobs with professionalism and loyalty. You choose to spit in our faces by spreading falsehoods and making excuses for a man simply because you share his political ideology.
Also, 1stLt Robert A. Rogers (who showed up for his drills for 11 years) breaks it down here and here for those who still believe the hype. My critics need to stop lying. It isn’t polite.
9/9/2004 13:23:00